It's all Plain to Sea

rlynde045 · Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 8

Hello:
I first must tell you that we are both (my wife and I) excited and a little scared of this whole project as it found us more than us out looking for it. We started trying to eat healthier (fresh veggitabls, less MSG, ect), in our area it is difficult and expensive to buy fresh produce year around. A guy was getting rid of these two structures so we aquired them and will try to grow veggies as much of the year as possible. We live in the NE corner of Wyoming.
We are erecting 2 used commercial greenhouses out back, #1 = 30'Wx36'Lx17'H. #2 = 30'Wx72'Lx?19'H. #1 is completely reconstructed and we will start digging this week for the SHCS system. # 2 is framed and we will be working on it as we go along.
Question #1 do these materials sound correct. I will attempt to add the calculator in this message.For #1 if i used the calculator correctly i think ill need 840' of 4" flex, with 2 plenums with 2-6" fans.

When framing these I leveled the walls and my ground has about a two foot drop front to back on #1, #2 has about a 4' drop front to back, so instead of backfilling around and in these i planned on building raised planters inside in a stairstep method to level the growing surface, does anyone see a problem with this or have any helpfull suggestions.[/img]. I think I attached a picture and the calculator, please let me know if I didnt and ill try again.

mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:31 am Post subject:

Any chance you could post just the link to your copy of the calculator at the Numsum site. Just go to the Calculator site and create an account, login, and then go to http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/4681 When the calculator comes up, the File menu has a 'Copy Spreadsheet' command you can click and get a copy for your own use. Rename/save it, enter you data and then put a link in a post to that copy of the Calculator on their site. We'll look at it and see if it makes sense. As a user, you can also use the File menu to Share the spreadsheet with anyone you'd like to email to.

In the meantime, lets walk though a wild ass guess of what your #1 greenhouse might need to get some serious heat exchange going...

From what I can see of your #1 description, it should be small enough for a single plenum/fan. It would have to be a big fan (a 14" duct booster perhaps), and the tubes would be about 30'-34' if you use a 18" culvert manifold on each end. At 30' wide, the most tubing you could manage would be about 3 layers with rows at least 18" on center. Doing the first rows 2' in from edge, you could manage at the most 17 rows or 17x3=51 tubes @ about 32' long. That comes to more like 1632 feet of tubes plus the two 28' foot culvert manifolds. (about $1000 in tubing)

A ball park volume for the gh would be about half the floor space x half the height = 30x36x8.5=9180 cu ft. At a minimum 5 exchanges an hour you need to push 9180x5=45900 cu ft an hour or 45900/60=765 cfm minimum. I'd put in a 1500 cfm fan for this design. That's a reasonably affordable and efficient fan that will do the job very well with that much tubing. If your tubing install turns out smaller, covering less area for what ever reason (rocks, obstructions, budget,) then a smaller fan might be more appropriate. There is no use putting an oversized fan on an undersized tubing system... the back pressure would kill your efficiency and just waste electricity. That size duct booster should be less than $200.

That all said, your 30x36 greenhouse should be able to be kept from overheating for most of the day. In a sunny 8 hour day, you should be able to store about 90,000 BTU/hr underground (assuming you have about 900 sq ft of glazing towards the sun for those 8 hours) Check out Chuck Wright's cool energy calculator. You can enter your glazing area and sunlight hours and see how much your greenhouse glazing potential is any other form of conventional energy. 90,000 BTU/hr is about the equivalent of three 30 gallon gas water heaters storing heat all day in the soil (for about the cost of running something maybe as small as a 300 watt fan...)
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mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject:

Thanks for sending me the link to your calculator online:
http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/109659

I am going to make myself a copy so you can see some corrections I've made. The first thing I saw was the Box Section entry for Height (16)... that should just be the height of the perfect box shape formed by the vertical part of the hoops, normally only about 4' high. Looks like you entered the peak height instead. I'll be entering 4' box height instead and seeing what develops... If you know the wall height you can use the links provided in the calculator to wade through a precise hoop volume calculation again.
Here's the link to the copy of your sheet:
http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/109660

From that sheet, the total volume comes out to more like 15000 cuft with a 1500 cfm fan doing 6 air exchanges an hour. If your wall heights are higher, I suspect you'll be getting a higher volume of air to move and be approaching the minimum air exchange rate. As it is with the 4' wall, the air speed and retention time in the tubing is close to that. No worries, IF it turns out your air volume is much higher and performance is not what you expected, you can increase the air exchange rate later to see if you get better heat exchanges. You would not have to change the tubing layout... it's completely maxxed out at 3 layers of 17 rows. To increase the air exchange rate, just add another fan to the exhaust plenum so that you are pushing and pulling, moving more air all the time but more importantly, moving significantly more air when the greenhouse is open to atmosphere and not completely sealed off.

As it is with this kind of layout you should be able to easily absorb any solar gain coming in and cool the gh by storing that energy while drying the air.
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rlynde045 · Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 8

Hey John and all: Here is an attachment of our updated figures,
http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/109659

You made reference to adding a fan to the exhaust plenum, Does the fan blow into the 55 gallon drums (plenum) or suck?
Embarassed

We can run two 18" manifolds in our system just fine, however we are having trouble getting in our head with how it plumbs to the plenum (4" to plenum or 18" or other size?) and also the amount and placement of 4" exaust clusters. Two plenums for working space would not be a problem in the GH if thats any more feasible than the manifolds, what is the best placement for the Plenum or Plenums? We also are having a little trouble finding a fan at 1500cfm, but think we have room for two $79 fans on the same plenum that we found http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180476643194&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WXI7&GUID=1a16077c1260a0437840b7e0ffead176&itemid=180476643194&ff4=263602_263622
which are rated at 1350 cfm @ 0.0 a piece; and we will add a reostat for flow adjustment.
My wife and I really appreciate your assistance and your web site, it is very nice of you to share this info!
THANKS!! Laughing

Editing this again; here we are.

Well we have located this drawing of a manifold design; and now things make more sense: Cool

http://plaintosea.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1023&highlight=ppictures+manifold+system

What if we use this design and lay it in the GH with the manifolds along the 34' side walls placing the fans in oppisite corners of the GH with 23x3, 4" tudes running 24' long on 17" centers starting 1' from the edge then we end up with 1656" of 4" pipe. If we turn the manifolds this way we will be able to backfill with equiptment rather than by hand as the structures are up and the hole is dug with one way in and out. This could include the 2, 14" fans mentioned above to adjust flow in and out.
Also how high above ground level should the two ends in the GH be and does the exhaust need positioned at a 90 degree angle in any particular direction?
What do you think?

mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:23 am Post subject:

rlynde045,

The fan spec looks good. Make sure you give us some feedback on those... the price almost seems a bit too low to believe. I usually look at Grainer.com to get an idea of industry standard hardware. They price at least 40% more than regular hardware dealers, but the service, delivery and support are what most big outfits need (paying employees $$$ to sort out wee issues never pays) This is the equivalent fan of theirs http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5C967?Pid=search

You'll note that it draws 1.7 amps compared to the ebay unit using only 0.80 amps. That tells you that it don't do much work, but specs out at moving 150 CFM more. Sounds like something fishy going on. No worries though if you use two. The price for two is the same and with two, it is bound to be a better performing system than with one fan... and it will cost the same. Go Figure....

The speed control is a decent option. At least then you will be able to do some speed tests for us! BTW, do you know what you need to measure to see what your Heat Exchange rate is? With adjustable fans you definitely want to do some tuning. And if you do that you will find out for all of us what the optimal air speed and air exchange rate is for such a layout.

Your build with the tubes is going to be fun... lol

I can see you've been thinking though. You most certianly will have to approach it from side to side, not end to end. Put in your first layer of a couple of rows, backfill, second layer, backfill, top layer, backfill, back out, and repeat. With a small skid steer it'll be a piece of cake.

I don't know what you are using for backfill?

You said '17 inch' centers.... not good. should be at least 18". The idea here is that high mass material absorbs heat at about 1" an hour. An 8 hour day would be a good day, so each tube might be able to influence 8 inches out from itself. That means that at the most you need 16" of dirt between tubes. With 4" tubes, that means 20" OC is the closest you need. So, 18 to 24" OC is a better bet. That means a bit less tubing. Don't worry, in this game, less is sometimes better all around.

Some of the numbers are not jiving so I am not sure where the 30 and 36 foot sides are here... but if you put the manifolds on the 36 foot sides, at 18" OC you'd have the 1' foot clearance with 23 rows of 3. You might be able to get longer than 24', but that sounds about right for now. Put in your 18" manifolds. Tie 'em down some how, and get a measurement for your first few tubes. Once you are happy with the length, go out and pre-cut them all the exact same length.

Whittle a hole in the top of the culvert and mating vertical plenum in opposite ends and you're done. Finish the backfill and let 'er rip. ]

You can mate the horizontal manifold to the vertical plenum with some ready mix around the joint just before you finish up the backfill. Fire a few screws in and around to fasten the two together, stuff the gaping holes and fire a few more screws around the area of the joint, leaving them proud to be grabbed by the concrete. Then backfill a bit, leaving a void close to the joint as your 'form'. Pour in some ready mix to seat that joint permanently.You don't want that coming undone and filling in with dirt.

All looks good. With your current design, you should be able to move closer to 10 times the volume of the gh air under ground every hour.

I hope you keep that camera going. If it works well, you'll be kicken' your self for not burning up some pixels on the project.

There's a ton a sites hosting pictures for free... Picasa, Flickr, Photo Bucket to name a few.

http://picasaweb.google.com
http://photobucket.com/
http://www.flickr.com

Post them there, use their site to copy the actual URL for them and paste that into the posts with the Img tool button at the top of the posting window.

BTW, to judge your performance, you need to do instantaneous Temp and Relative Humidity of the air going in and coming out as the system goes through a typical fall or spring day. From that, I've created a simple chart the will tell you how many lbs of water you are condensing per 1000 cu ft of greenhouse volume... That will tell you pretty much exactly how many BTU's per hour you are extracting. Adjust you fans up or down accordingly. Then when you've maxxed out the lbs of water you are condensing with the least amount of fan speed, then you are optimized. Get an air speed reading with a manometer and we'll have some real data to help with the next intrepid pioneer that comes along.

Thanks for keeping your project in the open for us. I appreciate it.
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mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:47 am Post subject:

r....

Here's my Flickr site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hobbithouse/

Your pixs are there now too.
And here...

rlynde045 · Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 8

Oh man we feel bad that you had to take time out while out of town; but appreceate it greatly! Sorry for missing the backfill material info; we planned on putting in 1' of 1" Limestone with each layer of 4" tube 3' total (120yds in the front driveway) then approx 14" of topsoil. We are also planning on adding inside the GH somewhere between 4 to 8, 330 gal tanks (small ones in wire cage's, not as big as they sound) connected to rain gutters along the GH to capture rain h20 and snow melt and to retain heat. Sorry about all the measuring mixups the Twisted Evil

made me do it,

mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:17 am Post subject:

All is well my friend. We're doing just fine.

Curious why you chose limestone for the back fill....

And what's with all the water inside? I don't think you'll need it as a heat sink. You'll have 30x36x3x80=130 TONS of soil as a heat sink already. If you raise the temperature of that amount of soil by 10 degrees as you go into Oct/Dec you'll have 130x2000x10=2.6 million BTU's of energy to supplement your daily gains with if they aren't high enough for the night heat. That's the equivalent of 10 30 gallon water heaters running 8 hours (enough energy to keep you from freezing for close to 100 days with no solar gain to use at night) What's up, trying to grow banana's? ?? LOL

BTW, water tanks with Redclaw crayfish work great in a greenhouse. They can put on 4 oz a summer if you can keep the water temps above 80 deg F. Google 'Redclaw'....
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS270US271&q=redclaw+farming&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Enjoy your weekend.
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rlynde045 · Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 8

ohla John:
We chose limestone because in our area the easiest and cheepest kinds of rock to get are red shale (sharp edges and breaks down over time) and lime stone (softer edges wont break down). In your comments about 17" or 18" centers you mention we need at least 16" of dirt between tubes, would it be better to backfill with dirt as apposed to the limestone? our subsoil is a sandy clay which becomes compact and hard to dig in the summer months.
The water tanks are for collecting the water for plant use more than anything else as our well water has a high concentration of iron and other minerals, when running it through a swamp cooler (evaperative cooler) you will get a build up of lime on the filters quickly.
I will reference picture #1 above (thanks for throwing those on by the way) for the measurements of 30 and 36 question you had, the 30' side is the width of the door side running North to South, the 36' is the length down the side running East to West. The dug out hole dementions inside are 33' L X 28' W give or take a few inchs here and there.
(by the way we had to get these Gh's constructed before we decided to instal this system due to man power issues, we strongly suggest laying in the SCHS system then build around it!)
BTW John the bananas arent a bad idea, however they would probably be grown in our next project house #2 which is the 30'X72' and yes we do some things on the fly as it is framed with the end walls up.
Toni (my awsome wife) says she likes crawfish but does not know if she likes them enough to raise them, but she does like bananas papya and mango. Oh man this is leading to more construction Shocked

LOL
Later bud: got to go haul some 18"
Rex-Toni;
THANKS!!!!!

mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:47 am Post subject:

As per usual there are too many options to cover than time to type... but I can try to cover some issues.

The rock fill idea is still debatable. Larger ((up to 2" crushed rock) has been done before with no feedback other than ' works good'

What can I say? No talky, no ticky. If you use cracked rock and the slit perforated 4" ADS, there will be some air leaking out of the tubing and moving out into an exchange zone out beyond the tubing andinto the rock zone. That theoretically could give you more heat exchange than by conduction through solid soil pack alone. I don't know yet how much this effect is worth encouraging and no one else is saying if they have a better understanding to know better. Your bet is as good as mine.

Keep in mind that with the crushed rock there is less conduction path to move the heat out and away from the tubing, so the there is a loss of heat exchange to consider there as well. Personally, if you have to buy the rock, why bother venturing out into an unknown area? Stick with the soil, maybe amend it a bit with some rock for better drainage.

I've done one project myself (and know of another) with crushed large rock simply because we were already starting out with nothing more than an empty hole already (see the Youtube video of the SHCS Steel Framed Greenhouse Project in Alpine Arizona - SHCS Steel Frame Greenhouse, and the SHCS Vapor Barrier install in particular, but haven't been back to check it out yet. I don't have another same system to compare... so don't think I'll ever know. What I do know is that pea gravel and clay sand subsoil 'work' just fine as it is.

There is one thing that I've been doing if I did use large rock infill: because the subsoil heat sink is so porous, there is the possibility that you would have a large amount of heat leaking out at night without your control. The warmer zone would be able to induce an air flow that could rise out of the subterranean zone all on it's own and it could on the same token take in chilled heavier air too. That in itself is no big deal, but it could be a problem is you had to have more control of when and how much heat you extract should it be a more marginal time of storage during the day. We've managed that by covering the entire back filled area with a vapor barrier that is perforated just enough to pass surface water by. That way, the soil above doesn't infiltrate the large rock zone over the years. And there is much less concern for air leaking heat out of the heat sink without your control.

I'll be back with more as time permits.
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rlynde045 · Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 8

Hope things are going good on your weekend project!

WOW so many things to think of, this is awsome, because in the backfill department i had it in my head that you put in rock throughout all the 4". That being said we have already purchased enough rock to do both of our GH's if we do a mix of rock with our sandy clay subsoil.
One other thing we plan to put in is some 1/2" pink board insulation (frost barrier on parimiter) that is rated for underground use, we saw where some suggest the blue which would be nice however it is not available in our area without speacial ordering.
We picked up some scrap 18" poly yesturday (haul off and you can have it kind of thing), which is a SCH 11. We will attempt to get a 4" hole in it today which may turn out to be a chalange as it is very thick.
We will screen off both ends for vermin as we do not need them little rascal's in there!
Speaking of airflow; you asked whether i knew how to mesure air flow, I told Toni that my plan was to hang out in the GH and see what felt good then do that, so when we get to that point im sure i will use that HELP signal again, it should be fun!!
Wink

Hate to sound like a broken record BUT-THANKS- Very Happy

mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:25 am Post subject:

Here's a few things to consider:
Don't waster your money on 1/2" foam. I don't know where you got that idea from, it's totally a waste of money. Foam isn't structural enough to handle for underground insulation until it is at least 2" thick, 1.5" if your are really careful. And it won't have any insulation value sufficient to make a significant difference till it's at least that thick. The color coding is for ratings re: underground or not. I am not sure which is which but I do believe it's the blue that is for underground. Correct me if I'm wrong. White bead board is a total waste of time underground. Another thing is that the foam board is best installed around the perimeter to keep the frost from coming into the gh, and can be done very easily horizontally outside the walls. That is particularly encouraged if you are using driven pins for your hoops. Excavating down around the perimeter will destroy the soil integrity that is required for pins to work. Look at the perimeter detail here.

Don't bother with using a holesaw for the manifold holes unless you use and humongous slow speed drill and some way to strap it to the pipe. It's incredibly grabby to do this in corrugated culvert, so you can easily break a wrist. I prefer to use a short pointed coarse toothed sawzall blade and a sabre saw. Scribe a line with a white marker, drill a starter and go from there. After a few, it's quite easy to get it bang on quickly. Check out the video here

You can screen the ends of the manifolds if you think mice or gophers are a problem. But some chunks of plywood screwed to the ends works just as well. The real place for the screens is over the fan outlet and inlet openings.

You'd be fooling yourself to think you can hang out in the gh to tell what's happening with the greenhouse! No one can sense what's going on or which direction to take things. Just measure the intake and outlet air temperature and RH and use the chart. The settings that have the highest lbs of water condensed are the ones to use and that changes as the season progresses. Setting fan speed too high wastes electricity big time if your using a lot of fan power, and too slow wastes all the money on the tubing and supplemental heating you'll end up needing unnecessarily. A few measurements taken throughout a day once or twice a month is all that is need.

AND remember, without HIGH humidity from lots of plants or misting, the whole idea of extracting heat is not going to work no matter how well you build it. It must have at least 70% RH at the input to begin working noticeably, and at least 90% at the input to get real dramatic. The whole greenhouse doesn't have to be 90% (and won't ever be) but the area around and just before it goes underground should be as hot and humid as you can get it. If you use misters till the plants catch up put them about two thirds of the way back from the exhausts so that the mist can fully evaporate and then reheat before going underground.

Hope you had a good job of it today. Let me know how it went.
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rlynde045 · Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 8

Hey man, things went pretty good today, ill e-mail you some pics (tried to get on flicker however am blocked from that site with this corp computer "security" reasons). Well, too late on the insulation as its already installed (thanks though as we would not have bothered with it) but since it is ini we will leave it for the worms to enjoy.
I checked out some of your convo with Hex and looked at the chart and will get some readings on flow when we get to that point. Interesting about the inlet temp and RH will have to look into some misting possibilities, as far as plants go that is part of the rush as Toni has a bunch started in the Sauna already; so they will need a home to move to soon. Gona hit the sack, catch ya later,

rlynde045 · Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 8

hey john and everyone: Laughing

We gained some ground since we last talked. Given we had to run electrical to both houses we had to set a second distribution panel and as luck would have it we found a discount one that we can meeter to track usage and should have power on this weekend.We have been playing with the fans (which have been in operation for approx 3 weeks on an extension cord). After several experiments we ended up with one fan on and made a makeshift backpressure luver to hold the hot air underground at night, which raised the temps below faster. It will be fun when we get an anomometer to measure flow along with playing with some smoke bombs to watch air flow, and we also still need to set up a mist system at inlet to raise the humidity. at this point the house will get in the 100+ range ambiant during the day and 48 degree ambiant range at night with 25 degree outside during the night and in the 60 degree range during the day.
We have a little wiring/conduit left inside to do for the plenum fans then we will move in the planters which will be constructed out of scrap's we have gatherd up in the area. John: I'll get you some new pictures soon on e-mail and if i send some you have already gotten i appologize. (Corp policy still wont allow me to get into flickr or others to add picts, sorry, but feel free to share if you wish)
Very Happy

mrhobbithhnet · Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject:

Sounds like you are almost off to the races. And it sounds like your system is indeed sucking up some heat.

Keep in mind that the system is not a direct heat exchange system... it's a evaporating and condensing system with a byproduct being the exchange of heat. That being the case, until you have significant RH in the gh, you will not be performing well wrt to secondary process of heat exchange. But even so, you can see from your numbers now that even without high RH to set the condensing process in motion, that there is significant heat extraction or you wouldn't be seeing the temperature differentials you are seeing now. You see it now with higher than normal nighttime temps, next you will see significant cooling happening during the day as well.

With Higher Humidity during the day, you should be able to keep you daytime temperatures down below 100 without too much trouble. We have in the past typically seen a max of 90 deg F when the humidity can be kept high. I remember quite fondly walking into my first SHCS project - from 110 deg F Colorado late July weather into a 'cool' 90 deg F greenhouse...

First, a lot of energy is removed to evaporate the water (minus 900+ btu's per pound of water whether from plants or from misters) and second, a lot of energy is removed when that air condenses underground (minus another 900+ btu's per lb) So, until your gh is full of plants and/or misters, the numbers you are seeing are just the beginning of the potential. Typically, there is 5 times more opportunity to move heat with an evap/condense cycle than there is with just conduction of heat directly, having just a little of both going for you will make it all work quite well for you.

If you do put in misters to manage the RH until all plants are in, make sure that they are placed in a manner that allows for maximum evap and also re-heat of that moist air. You want to see to it that you have hot and highly humid air going underground. Typically, that means placing misting in a zone where the temps have begun to rise above what you want but has yet to move through the rest of the gh getting a little hotter than you want. Near the middle of the gh up high is a good place to start thinking of placing misters. As long as you have the freedom to move around in there now, you should play around with it. The biggest problem with misters is drippage and plant soaking, but folks have managed to get clever enough with their placements that those issues are dealt with.

Of course, misters are more or less passive, just a water and hardware cost. But you could just as easily plunk an old swamp cooler down somewhere too, and run that without outside air to bring up humidity for awhile.... but that does involve more energy, maybe more than 1/4hp most of the hot part of the day. Keep in mind that unless you are looking at very little vegetation, it's usually going to be normal plant watering and plant respiration that should be your source of humidity. IF you keep things up in the 80% range with lots of air moving, you will have amazing results.

If you do have lots of winter sun and intend to run this in the dead of winter daylight hours, consider using a 24/7 closed gh and a CO2 generator. A full greenhouse buttoned up all day will not work, the plants need CO2. With a CO2 generator (usually from just an unvented propane flame) you add heat, CO2 and humidity.

Keep us up with your project, it's looking like you've got the stuff to get it done... and as you've seen, it's not a dry old 'plan', it's a process that you go through in thinking and making best use of your stuff and your circumstance. Some manage well in an improv theater, others simply need a script. I am glad to see you are somewhat of an improv master. It fills out the script for the rest of the world that will never function without one.
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