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34,000 sq feet SHCS in Vancouver?

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mrhobbithhnet
Site Admin

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 313
Location: Talent, Oregon

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:22 am Post subject: 34,000 sq feet SHCS in Vancouver?

Quote:

Hi,

I found you web site through on-line research, and would like to incorporate the heating and cooling techniques you describe into a project I am currently working on. I am in the planning stages of the project, which will involve building a greenhouse, or series of greenhouses.

The overall project itself is for a commercial scale, integrated aquaculture and hydroponic plant growth system. You may have heard of the term Aquaponics, which describes this practice. It is a sustainable, ecological and environmentally friendly way of producing significant volumes of fish, herbs and vegetables using minimal amounts of water and land. I am committed to incorporating as many energy, money and resource saving ideas into the design as possible, with the lowest possible energy consumption requirement being the key goal.

Having carried out some initial calculations, based on financial and production capacity business plans, I have worked out that I will need a total greenhouse floor space of around 36 m x 88 m, an overall area of 3,200 square metres (approximately 119 ft x 288 ft, or 34,000 square feet), and I wanted to ask your advice regarding some system design factors.

My first question is whether you would be open to providing me with advice? I am happy to pay, if you would like to provide me with fee schedule.

My second question (once the first is settled) is regarding the overall floor space. I would like to use the subterranean heating and cooling methods you describe on your web site. With this in mind, would you recommend breaking the space up into smaller units? Would this make the heating and cooling more efficient, or would it also work in a large open space (subject to correct air exchange flows and sufficient blowers and tubing installations).

The system itself will be composed of six separate modular units, so it may be logical to break it up along these lines, although this will affect the construction budget for the structures.

I look forward eagerly to your reply.
Kind regards,
D

Derek,

Thank you for your interest in the SHCS for maximizing solar heating and cooling of greenhouses.

You inquiry is appreciated, and falls on the heels of a similarly sized proposal from GroGreen in Colorado who are working with www.AmHydro.com.

Their proposal involves several modules of huge proportion, so your proposal meets me with at least some sort of starting point for the ramifications of upscaling beyond my usually sized client requests.

The stumbling block to upscaling to mega projects (beyond 3000 sq ft) is the need for engineering input on the fan selection, sizing and duct layout to handle commercially sized volumes of air. If my approach with the SHCS could be upscaled, the numbers would indeed be impressive from a theoretical standpoint, but to date, I've yet to find economical fan sizing to handle 5k to 15k CFM through the system. That isn't to say it can't be done, it just means that until I've worked with individuals who can point me in the right direction or that I can guide to a goal, there are no solutions forthcoming as of yet.

The starting point of any SHCS design starts with an analysis of the total enclosed volume of the greenhouse. It is the enclosed air we are using to move solar gain underground for cooling the gh during the day and for night heating at night. That air, by the goals we've found economical for small systems, should be moving through the Underground Air Circulation System at a rate approximately at least 5 times per hour. That permits rapid enough latent heat and vapor extraction for a cooling effect above ground during the day so that there is use-able stored gains to cushion from the cold of the following night. We can do that very effectively in smaller systems with small fractional HP fans and an underground tubing matrix of 4" ADS. But when I've done some sourcing for larger, multiple HP sized fans, the cost per 1000 CFM rises exponentially to a point where the economics suffer.

That put aside...

I am interested in your inquiry because you make clear that you could be in position to modularize your total enclosure if that was seen as an advantage. (and you sound like a fella capable of bigger thinking on your feet too...)

I think it would be to our advantage if we talked over the phone. Conversation is a no-charge option for you. Mind you, I have no free talk plan for conversations from here to Canada. If you are willing to call on your nickel, I'd certainly enjoy an open discussion of what SHCS plans might look like for you.

I will be freely available till mid week next week at (970) 215-4710. After that, I will be back at work with the www.StrawJet.com gang here in Talent OR and will only be available early evenings and weekends.

BTW, I am a Canuck/Merican, and could be in your area on another venture possibility emerging next summer.

BTW2, I don't charge till I produce a feasible plan on paper. Till then it's all without hindrance of the clock ticking away the dollars. And if my 'philanthropy' and good nature serve you well enough to effect your bottom line positively, then I do accept gratuities gratefully.

As an aside, at this point the SHCS is an explosion waiting for an ignition source - I best hope to find that manifesting by sharing the numbers that work with owner/builders, and seeing what common sense amongst the greenhouse building community resolves to. So far, if the Chinese experience with SHCS is a measure, we are very much behind the 8 ball. Hopefully that will change. Especially with the Canadian contingent stepping up to the plate. After all, it was the Canadian government that financed and researched the first baby steps into the realm of SHCS's. Ever since I read a CMHC report on some 70's research in the west somewhere, I've been boon-dogging the SHCS approach to greenhouse air conditioning. Believe it or not, I had to run into a character in the Colorado Rockies (who'd read the CMHC report too) and who'd slammed together his own crude version of a SHCS to see that it actually worked - and worked magically! Of course, setting up a few pyrometers and instantaneous RH meters in my first prototype/copy of his system told the tale. Phase Change Underground was Happening ... and I've been putting in systems to do just that ever since.
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Last edited by mrhobbithhnet on Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

dhoffer

Joined: 14 Jun 2010
Posts: 1

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:01 am Post subject:

Just curious what the status of this project is. Did you use SHCS? How did it turn out? I too have a similar size project and am considering SHCS...just want to see how this has worked for others for larger projects. Thanks, -Dave

mrhobbithhnet
Site Admin

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 313
Location: Talent, Oregon

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:28 pm Post subject:

dhoffer wrote:

Just curious what the status of this project is. Did you use SHCS? How did it turn out? I too have a similar size project and am considering SHCS...just want to see how this has worked for others for larger projects.

Thanks,
-Dave

I never heard much more from Derek after our initial conversations looking at what was involved. I do believe I sketched up some floor plans that might have been a starting point for him... at least I know I did for the AmHydro proposal... but have not heard hide nor hair of Derek since. I hope he's doing well with whatever the project turned out becoming.

Here's some of that project:

Proposed Floor plan

A SHCS Manifold
- if using a single humongous fan for inlet and exit moving all the air...
- does not show the 3 layers of 18" OC 4" ADS UACT that join the inlet and exit manifold

The Multiple Small Fan SHCS Plan
- could be set up with much smaller diameter manifolds and fans
- smaller hardware could mean smaller total outlays

Greenhouse Air Volume Calcs

Note: 5 X air exchanges per hour through the SHCS has been shown to be the LOWEST cost effective volume rate.
Heat Exchange performance will increase up to and beyond exchange rates as high as 10 X per hour.

length width average hieght total volume
132 120 14 221760 cf

Total air volume in CFM to move minimum of 5 X hr air exchange to rock bed heat sink

18480 cfm

Four Single Cells - air volume flow using 4 fans at:
4620 cfm each

Eight Single Cells - air volume flow using 8 fans at:
2310 cfm each

Rock Bed Volume

length width depth volume mass at 80 lbs per cubic foot
132 120 3 47520 3801600 lbs
cuft
_________________
Just because it looks that way doesn't mean the Universe is about us, you or me. It's about Life.

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